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Hertford event and tours company policy.

Dispatch of tickets.
181 Replies
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Post # 61
Top Thu 26th Apr 2012 08:39
arkleyali

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 02/04/2012
Topics: 0 Replies: 114
Dusty, I could go on Mastermind answering questions about the Royal Albert Hall, but I'm afraid I'm not that au fait with other ticket sales so please be aware that the following questions are not meant to be incendary; they are merely questions that I think perhaps you can answer:

Is not the 10-20% noshow figure in some way connected to the fact (in part at least) that refunds or exchanges of tickets are not allowed?

Given that the big primary companies such as Ticketmaster have such a vested interest in the secondary market will they not just change their terms and conditions?
 
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Post # 62
Top Thu 26th Apr 2012 09:13
Markland

Rating: Rock Icon
Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763

Primaries do not set the terms and conditions on tickets

Only one primary, as far as we are aware owns a secondary site, Ticketmaster/Getmein, which is, frankly, a conflict of interest given that it is breaching the terms and conditions on tickets set out by its clients

 
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Post # 63
Top Thu 26th Apr 2012 09:31
arkleyali

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 02/04/2012
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Thanks for the explanation - I had a feeling it wouldn't be as simplistic as I thought!

But, if by "clients" you mean promoters - don't they also have a vested interest in the secondary market (as recently seen on TV) and won't they just change the terms and conditions? As far as I can make out, promoters just want to sell the tickets and don't really care how that's done. If they had any genuine concerns for the ticket-buying public they would allow refunds.
 
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Post # 64
Top Thu 26th Apr 2012 14:10
Markland

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Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
Totally agree about the refunds point, promoters and venues should have put infrastructure in place to enable people to dispose of tickets they can no longer use safely, with no financial loss to the fan, years ago

It is long over due

As for promoters having a vested interest in secondaries, dumping tickets straight onto tout sites without anything to indicate they are from promoters is out and out deception and should be roundly condemned

There are other ways for promoters to hike up the price of tickets, such as dynamic ticket pricing, without resorting to such underhand tactics

The tout platforms are equally to blame for going along with it and, yet again, deceiving the public

Its always worth reading the terms and conditions for changes and it will be interesting to see if any are made

As for promoters, many do seem to actually care about giving the public a fair deal, unfortunately, a small number seem to be willing to use deceptive tactics to maximise profit, as was exposed by the Dispatches programme

And lets hope it is a very small number

 
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Post # 65
Top Thu 26th Apr 2012 22:02
Dusty

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 01/02/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 127

Thanks for answering Markland.
One also has to remember that some of those claims about promoter supply to resellers relate to an attempt by the promoters to bring down the prices through supply. (something the Govt suggested) One of the 'accused' companies (SJM) has a director who is one of the most active and vociferous opponents of reselling. Smoke and mirrors (as Medusa would say)
As for the refunds 'not allowed' 65% of STAR members offer refunds + a lot of non star members. It may not be advertised (because otherwise touts would buy even more if there was a guarantee they could return their unsold) but it happens every day for genuine customers. (that figure if it were relevant is less than .01% of capacity) Also..CPA have committed to offering a resale facility through primaries as soon as action is taken against illegal reselling.

 
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Post # 66
Top Thu 26th Apr 2012 22:19
arrgee2011

Rating: Mega Star
Joined: 30/11/2011
Topics: 7 Replies: 205
Quote from Markland - 25th Apr 2012 15:08 View
Actually selling certain types of football tickets is criminal

Section 166 of The Criminal justice Act as amended by The Violent Crime Reduction Act I believe

so that makes it right does it? 

“The imposition of strict liability in the criminal law is widely thought by scholars to be unjustified. There is, moreover, a broad consensus about why it is wrong. Strict liability leads to convictions of persons who are, morally speaking, innocent. Convicting and punishing those who do not deserve it perpetrates a serious wrong. Thus strict liability is a misuse of the criminal law – an institution which, because of its moral significance and grave implications for the lives of convicted defendants, should be reserved only for the regulation of serious wrongs done by culpable wrongdoers” (Simester 2005: 40).

Going back to the original story from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-17446300

Police arrested two men on suspicion of touting prior to Sunday's Premier League game at Molineux, Wolverhampton.

I suspect this was a couple of ignorant fans selling tickets, because the real touts are far too smart to get caught.  So much for stopping organised crime. And as for touting for the Olympics football tournament refered to in the article, does this copper seriously expects the Belarus ultras and the Kiwi firm to have a serious carve up in the Ricoh stadium?

Thursday, July 26

  • City of Coventry Stadium, Coventry: Belarus v New Zealand (1945).

Sunday, July 29

  • City of Coventry Stadium, Coventry: Mexico v Gabon (1430).
  • City of Coventry Stadium, Coventry: South Korea v Switzerland (1715).

Wednesday, August 1

  • City of Coventry Stadium, Coventry: Japan v Honduras (1700).
  • City of Coventry Stadium, Coventry: Senegal v United Arab Emirates (1945).

 

 
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Post # 67
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 00:17
Markland

Rating: Rock Icon
Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
OK the basis of a stable society is the fact that we have laws

Without laws we have anarchy

I disagree with some laws but do not break them because thats how people behave in a civilised society

If someone breaks the law, gets caught and is prosecuted that, frankly, is their own fault

If people don't like laws there are ways of getting them either amended or even repealed

Breaking them isn't one of them
 
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Post # 68
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 08:45
harrytheo

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Joined: 15/11/2010
Topics: 7 Replies: 316
Oh Markland, ofcourse you've broken the law - we all have. Some laws are so archaic or unenforcable that it's inevitable.

Don't tell me you've never donated a book to a charity shop for them to sell at a profit. That's breaking the law. Never "borrowed" a paperclip or pencil from your employer? That's breaking the law. Never jay-walked? That's breaking the law. I don't suppose you've ever herded your sheep across Westminster Bridge, but who knows?
 
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Post # 69
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 11:22
Markland

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Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763

Nice try Harry

I don't think anyone could class the legislation around football tickets as "archaic"

Especially as it was only passed in 1994 and the amendment was passed in 2006

Its illegal, they got caught, they were convicted they were punished

Only person to blame was themselves

 
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Post # 70
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 13:10
arrgee2011

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Quote from Markland - 27th Apr 2012 11:22 View

 

Nice try Harry

I don't think anyone could class the legislation around football tickets as "archaic"

Especially as it was only passed in 1994 and the amendment was passed in 2006

Its illegal, they got caught, they were convicted they were punished

Only person to blame was themselves

 

I would suggest that those who got caught were ignorant of the law regarding reselling football tickets.   I never thought there would be any issue seliing on a spare ticket at face value.  The real touts know how to skirt around the law and never get caught.

I'm not really sure what the punishment achieves, but it outweighs the so-called offence.  Another example of the authorities using a sledgehammer to crack an egg.  The nut is still intact.

I think the coppers are to blame for applying the letter of the law, rather than just warning the buyer and seller that they couldn't trade tickets.  It makes good press to say the police are clamping down on touts rather than telling the whole story.

 

 
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Post # 71
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 13:19
arrgee2011

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Quote from Markland - 27th Apr 2012 00:17 View

If people don't like laws there are ways of getting them either amended or even repealed

Breaking them isn't one of them

Worked with prohibition.

 
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Post # 72
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 13:19
arrgee2011

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Post # 73
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 13:29
arrgee2011

Rating: Mega Star
Joined: 30/11/2011
Topics: 7 Replies: 205
Quote from harrytheo - 27th Apr 2012 08:45 View
...ofcourse you've broken the law - we all have. Some laws are so archaic or unenforcable that it's inevitable.
 

I suspect I have unintentionally broken the law umpteen times.   I wouldn't know what the law says on many matters, so should a copper come up to me and nick me for something I thought to be wholly innocent,  I wouldn't be that shocked.  A few years ago, the coppers would have a word with someone, nowadays they just nick them.

It's like Judge Dredd in Mega City One, nearly everyone has committed a crime.  The only ones who haven't are the real ciminals who know the law inside out.

 

 
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Post # 74
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 13:31
Markland

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Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
Yes organised crime did manage to get the law overturned

Is that your recommendation regarding the sale of football tickets then?
 
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Post # 75
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 13:46
arrgee2011

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Joined: 30/11/2011
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Quote from Markland - 27th Apr 2012 13:31 View
Yes organised crime did manage to get the law overturned

Is that your recommendation regarding the sale of football tickets then?

Civil disobedience (law breaking) has led to many changes in the law.  I chose prohibition as it created criminals of people who would not have been criminal.  If anything, the law encouraged organised crime as it provided the gangsters with another stream of income. Indeed, the mafia became so powerful and influential through their black market activities distributing alcohol.

You wrote earlier that breaking the law wasn't a way of getting it repealed.  I just gave a good example of when it did.

Nothing will change regarding football tickets as there aren't enough people impacted.  If I could I'd change the law to allow those who were not profiting from a ticket sale (any ticket, football, theatre, sport, concert) to not be prosecuted. 

Football is a slightly different case as away supporters could infultrate the home supporters areas under such an arrangement without being traced for high risk games, but invariably CCTV tends to prevent this.  After all, all the rioters from last summer got caught out by CCTV.  Well, except the real criminals who were smart enough to keep covered up.

 
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Post # 76
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 14:03
Markland

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If you think the murders and mayhem of the 1920's was a good way to get prohibition repealed we'll have to agree to disagree

Breaking the law is not the way to get legislation repealed in a civilised, democratic society

Where does it stop?

You don't like the law preventing murder so you go out and break the law to have that repealed?

Its a slippery slope to anarchy
 
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Post # 77
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 14:14
arrgee2011

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Quote from Markland - 27th Apr 2012 14:03 View
If you think the murders and mayhem of the 1920's was a good way to get prohibition repealed we'll have to agree to disagree

Breaking the law is not the way to get legislation repealed in a civilised, democratic society

Where does it stop?

You don't like the law preventing murder so you go out and break the law to have that repealed?

Its a slippery slope to anarchy

The law caused the mayhem. 

Civil disobedience has been used to repeal laws.  And in civilised, democratic societies.  It is in many cases the only way things get changed. 

Would women have got the vote as soon as they did without  civil disobedience? 

Would apartheid in South Africa have ended?

Would racial discrimation been outlawed in the US in the sixties?

If you want strict adherance to the law check out the totalitarian states.

Your comment regarding not liking the law preventing murder as an excuse for murder is ridculous.

 
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Post # 78
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 15:24
Markland

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Topics: 250 Replies: 1763

None of the examples you have just quoted could be regarded as being democratic societies at the time you are referring to

I stated "Breaking the law is not the way to get legislation repealed in a civilised, democratic society"

Thats pretty much what we live in now so there is no need to step outside of the law to change it

Recommending breaking the law in the type of society we live in is a slippery slope and you certainly have no way of putting the breaks on it

 
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Post # 79
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 15:52
arkleyali

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You are saying that this was not a civilised, democratic society until at least 1918 when women got the vote? Perlease!
 
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Post # 80
Top Fri 27th Apr 2012 16:15
Markland

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Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
No imho it wasn't

How can you call a society civilised and democratic one when half the population were denied the vote on the basis of their gender?

Very democratic

We were also only one step removed from slavery at that time with people being "in service" to rich families

And lets not even start about what health care was available to people at the time......
 
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