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StubHub Says Artists, Venues, Fans Not Scalpers Inflate Ticket Prices

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Original Message Post # 1
Tue 19th Jun 2012 20:42
WhatTheF
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Although US focused the mechanics and dynamics are equally applicable to most countries

http://evolver.fm/2011/04/04/stubhub-says-artists-promoters-venues-and-fans-not-scalpers-cause-price-inflation-and-ticket-shortages/

 
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Post # 2
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 01:56
Dusty

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Hey WTF. For someone who spends most of his time on this forum telling people to stop talking rubbish, what the hell are you posting that for? It's beyond utter crap. It's the equivalent of a post saying burglary is the fault of people leaving their windows open. It's American. For all I know reselling tickets is legal in the USA. I don't live there.

I do know that if you buy a ticket in the UK from a primary agent then the agents terms and conditions render the ticket void on 'attempted resale' so if an artist puts his tickets on the secondary market, he's a b****rd but not breaking any laws. If a reseller buys from a primary agent with the intention of reselling then he's guilty of fraud and can go to prison.

Stubhub only have to look at the products being sold by resellers on their site to know which ones are criminal resales. Stubhub knowingly make money from criminal activity. Worse, they deliberately encourage people to break the law. Both are very serious crimes but hey, lets give credence to their pathetic attempts to claim it's not their fault they're making millions from breaking the law.

What gets me is that if you or I went in for a spot of money laundering, the police would be down on us like a ton of bricks. Multi-millionaires in posh suits do it openly and don't get touched. Why is that?
 
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Post # 3
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 10:42
ackerman2406

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Blimey, what a cynical and bitter lot you are. I can assure you that it takes more than a smart suit and a few bob in the bank to render a peson immune to prosecution.
 
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Post # 4
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 12:34
Dusty

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Oh Yes. It's who you know as well isn't it? ;-)

No. I was thinking about that kid in Bangor who wrote "lets have a riot" on his facebook site. No one rioted as a result of the post but he got four years. The platforms openly encourage others to break the law and two of the ringleaders get given seats on the board of Operation Podium.

I'm not bitter at all. (I would be if I was the Bangor kid) but I do think it's good to have a bit of healthy cynicism. I don't know if WTF read the whole article but, if he did, he should have noted that the interviewer wasn't at all convinced by the Stubhub claims.

Personally, I do agree with you about the importance of the News International enquiry. It's another example of blind eyes being turned because those breaking the law have money, power and friends in very high places but do you honestly think Rebecca Brooks will be sent to prison for anything like 4 years? And what about the people in authority who colluded with her? They just quietly resigned.
 
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Post # 5
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 16:35
Markland

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Quote from ackerman2406 - 22nd Jun 2012 10:42 View
Blimey, what a cynical and bitter lot you are. I can assure you that it takes more than a smart suit and a few bob in the bank to render a peson immune to prosecution.

 

Really?

Ebay seem to be managing it quite well with their illegal sale of Olympic tickets

 

 
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Post # 6
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 19:33
ackerman2406

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Forgive me, I can't find any Olympic tickets on Ebay, either for sale or sold. Perhaps I'm looking on the wrong page?
Lots of tickets for sale for the Hyde Park concert.
 
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Post # 7
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 19:58
Markland

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Try ebay.com and search for London summer games tickets

Only 5 pages of Olympic tickets there now

It was 7 before and many of those offers look decidedly dodgy

So much for ebay pontificating that they would not allow the listing of Olympic tickets!
 
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Post # 8
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 20:19
angela3

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That's ebay.com
It's not illegal to resell Olympic tickets in the USA.

ebay.co.uk don't have Olympic tickets.

Well done Markland in highlighting that Olympics tickets can be resold on a ebay.com account.
There will be lots of people who have tickets that they can no longer use, who will find this information useful, even more so when they see the prices for some of the completted auctions.
 

 
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Post # 9
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 20:54
WhatTheF
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Quote from Dusty - 22nd Jun 2012 01:56 View
Hey WTF. For someone who spends most of his time on this forum telling people to stop talking rubbish, what the hell are you posting that for? It's beyond utter crap. It's the equivalent of a post saying burglary is the fault of people leaving their windows open. It's American. For all I know reselling tickets is legal in the USA. I don't live there.

I do know that if you buy a ticket in the UK from a primary agent then the agents terms and conditions render the ticket void on 'attempted resale' so if an artist puts his tickets on the secondary market, he's a b****rd but not breaking any laws. If a reseller buys from a primary agent with the intention of reselling then he's guilty of fraud and can go to prison.

Stubhub only have to look at the products being sold by resellers on their site to know which ones are criminal resales. Stubhub knowingly make money from criminal activity. Worse, they deliberately encourage people to break the law. Both are very serious crimes but hey, lets give credence to their pathetic attempts to claim it's not their fault they're making millions from breaking the law.

What gets me is that if you or I went in for a spot of money laundering, the police would be down on us like a ton of bricks. Multi-millionaires in posh suits do it openly and don't get touched. Why is that?

"For someone who spends most of his time on this forum telling people to stop talking rubbish, what the hell are you posting that for?"

Because I can and I feel like it. And getting a reaction from you is all the more sweeter.

 
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Post # 10
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 21:10
ackerman2406

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"Quote from Markland - 22nd Jun 2012 19:58 View
Try ebay.com and search for London summer games tickets

Only 5 pages of Olympic tickets there now

It was 7 before and many of those offers look decidedly dodgy

So much for ebay pontificating that they would not allow the listing of Olympic tickets!"
 
Well, Markland - it's not often that I'm lost for words.  What can I say?  Where there's a will there's a way.  I suppose that in the grand scheme of things this is a tiny amount of tickets.  Nobody in their right mind thought that there would be NO resale of tickets did they?
 
A cursory look at the sellers seems to show that most of them are not UK based.  If it's not illegal for them to be sold in the USA I guess that's all there is to be said on the matter. 

 

 
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Post # 11
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 21:12
Markland

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Quote from angela3 - 22nd Jun 2012 20:19 View

 


It's not illegal to resell Olympic tickets in the USA.


 

 

You need to check the law

It is illegal anywhere in the world without written authority from LOCOG

Check the legislation

 
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Post # 12
Top Fri 22nd Jun 2012 21:25
ackerman2406

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Can't find anything actually pertaining to a US law on the resale of Olympic tickets.
Laws made in the UK do not apply to the USA.

Perhaps someone can help me out finding the information.
 
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Post # 13
Top Sat 23rd Jun 2012 01:21
Markland

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There are several crimes on the statute books in the UK that apply regardless of where the offence is committed

Many other countries have legislation that also applies regardless of the geographical location of the offence

Pertinent examples on ticketing would be where premiership football tickets have been sold from websites based overseas and persons involved in the sale of those tickets have been arrested upon entering the UK

On this particular point regarding ebay we've already been told by Police that they are committing offences

it will be interesting to see if ebay directors are treated the same way as the football touts were and are arrested on entering the UK, or, as we suspect, there is one law for big business and another for everyone else
 
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Post # 14
Top Sat 23rd Jun 2012 08:31
ackerman2406

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"On this particular point regarding ebay we've already been told by Police that they are committing offences"

I'm afraid that being told by "the police" doesn't hack it. Who exactly told you? Your friendly copper on the beat? The Met. Commissioner?

To put it in simple terms, for something to be law there has to be written legislation and try as I might I cannot find anything to say that it's illegal to sell Olympic tickets in the USA. I am more than happy to be proved wrong if someone can point me in the correct direction.

Let's look at the case of a South African person who sold tickets on Ebay.com for the Opening Ceremony. Ebay.com don't sell anything themselves. Do you think a UK court could force them to disclose the details of the seller? I don't think so - but could be wrong. Even if they could - what would happen next? Is it illegal to sell these tickets in South Africa? (Another one that I don't know the answer to). Would the UK courts apply for extradition of that person? Would they apply for extradition of Mr. Ebay.com if he didn't disclose the details? What do you think?

And what about the buyer? The only crime he's committed is that of having more money than sense.

Nobody is ever going to stop the black market in Olympic tickets. Operation Podium have got it spot on - going for the scammers who have been selling non-existent tickets as these are the real criminals

 
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Post # 15
Top Sat 23rd Jun 2012 09:48
Markland

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No, the opinion came from a Police officer in a unit with specialist knowledge of this very subject

So no it wasn't a "friendly copper on the beat"

And the point we made was that several of these offers on ebay look potentially fraudulent

As for the legislation I suggest you look at sections 31 and 41 (5) of the Olympic legislation

Section 31 makes it an offence to sell or offer for sale Olympic tickets without written authorisation from LOCOG

Ebay has no written authorisation from LOCOG

Section 41 (5) makes it any offence anywhere in the world

So ebay are breaking the law

And it was Operation Podium who stated that regardless of where people were offering these tickets for sale, they would send them cease and desist letters and if they failed to stop, they would be arrested if they set foot in the UK

Their words not ours
 

Here is the legislation:

 

 

31Sale of tickets

(1)A person commits an offence if he sells an Olympic ticket—

(a)in a public place or in the course of a business, and

(b)otherwise than in accordance with a written authorisation issued by the London Organising Committee.

(2)For the purposes of subsection (1)—

(a)Olympic ticket” means anything which is or purports to be a ticket for one or more London Olympic events,

(b)a reference to selling a ticket includes a reference to—

(i)offering to sell a ticket,

(ii)exposing a ticket for sale,

(iii)advertising that a ticket is available for purchase, and

(iv)giving, or offering to give, a ticket to a person who pays or agrees to pay for some other goods or services, and

(c)a person shall (without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1)(a)) be treated as acting in the course of a business if he does anything as a result of which he makes a profit or aims to make a profit.

 

 

41

Extent and application

 

(5)Section 31 shall apply in respect of anything done whether in the United Kingdom or elsewhere.

 
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Post # 16
Top Sat 23rd Jun 2012 11:05
ackerman2406

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Thanks for re-printing that Markland. Ofcourse, you are perfectly correct and nobody in the UK (whether he is a UK citizen or not) can sell or advertise a ticket for sale anywhere in the world.

But these are UK legislations and I do not know what legislation the S. African government has put in place in regard to the re-selling of Olympic tickets.

I am also not sure how Operation Podium can send a cease & desist letter to a seller on Ebay.com unless Ebay.com releases information to them revealing the seller's identity. Ebay.com is a US company, so once again - I don't know what the regulations in the US are regarding the re-selling of these tickets.

If anybody reading this knows where to find these regulations (or regulations for any other country) I would be very interested in reading them. I would very much like to know the regulations for the countries where Olympic Officials have been outed by The Sunday Times.
 
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Post # 17
Top Sat 23rd Jun 2012 23:01
Markland

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Not a problem, glad to reprint it

However, the UK legislation does not state that the person has to be in the UK

It applies to anyone anywhere, including ebay in the USA

Regulations in other countries are nothing to do with this

Here is a perfect example

A tout in Norway, advertised football tickets for a designated match in the UK

When that tout entered the UK he was arrested for the offence

The same should happen to global companies like ebay in relation to Olympic tickets

They should be treated no differently

As for Olympic officials selling tickets on the black market, its been the worst kept secret for decades, its about time the IOC and the NOCs cleaned house and stopped this corruption once and for all

They should be prosecuted where possible

Its a disgrace
 
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Post # 18
Top Sun 24th Jun 2012 09:02
ackerman2406

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Markland,

I understand exactly what you are saying, but you are quoting from the London Olympic Games & Paralympic Games Act 2006 which is a UK law, not an international convention.

In my example, if the S. African selling on a US site never comes to the UK that person will never be prosecuted under UK law. I have no idea what the S. African or US laws are in regard to selling Olympic tickets so can't comment with confidence.

As you know, Ebay don't actually sell anything themselves so I cannot speculate what would happen to them.

My personal opinion (and it's only that, an opinion) is that once the Games are over and done with and Operation Podium has been wound up, individual international Ebay sellers will be able to come and go to/from the UK with no fear of prosecution. It's quite possible that one of the officials may be made an example of because as you say, it's a disgrace. But then, if they enter the UK under diplomatic immunity nothing at all will happen to them. I don't think it's ever been a secret that they sell their tickets - it's more a fact of life. A distasteful one, but one that is never going to go away.

As far as I am concerned, my sympathies lie with these poor people who have been conned by Aossa etc.
At least the people buying tickets from officials will get to see the Games.
 
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Post # 19
Top Mon 25th Jun 2012 02:30
Dusty

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@ Ackerman. While the reality of the situation may be exactly as you describe it. The fact is that Ebay.com are knowingly making money from a criminal offence. That is a criminal offence.

Secondly: Yes they can force Ebay to disclose the seller's details. The RFU took Viagogo to court because they refused to disclose the names of sellers. They won.
In the UK it is illegal not to disclose your name and geographical address if you are selling online in the course of business. (At least 95% of secondary sales are in the course of business)

Aossa is the tip of a criminal iceburg and it's getting worse. Credit card fraudsters have entered the market. (it was only a matter of time) So, what you're about to see is a lot of people who've got their tickets and maybe travelled hundreds of miles being turned away at the gate.

How many people have to be ripped off before you lot (not all of you obviously) wake up to the fact that the secondary market is harming everyone? From fake tickets to tax evasion, fraud and money laundering. It's illegal. It harms innocent people. It's wrong.

Several commentators on this forum have expressed the view that because I'm a primary agent, I'm against the secondary market because they take trade away. They couldn't be more wrong. Primary agents and promoters make money from the secondary market because more tickets are sold. If all we cared about was our personal income, we wouldn't be fighting it. If my job does affect my view it's because I see and hear a lot more of what's going on than most of you do. Every single person who's worked the door at a festival has seen tears. Many have been moved to tears themselves.

The government says it's an industry problem. Increase security on tickets. What! Do they really want us to turn away the victims of crime? To punish the innocent party? It's nonsensical. You only have to read the comments on here to know that people do blame themselves. Dont! You've been ripped off. Report it. Publicise it. Write to your MP. The commercial resale of tickets will be banned eventually and perhaps the arrival of international fraud into the market will hasten that. Maybe I should be glad it's here but I'm not.
 
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Post # 20
Top Mon 25th Jun 2012 09:07
ackerman2406

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Dusty,

Let's take this one point at a time. Ebay.com is a US-based company. If a seller outside the UK chooses to sell something on that site neither parties are bound by UK law. (I think you're getting a little confused between Ebay.com & Ebay.co.uk). Viagogo are no longer a UK based company and have taken the case to a higher court. They have promised to disclose the details if the final judgement is against them. Whether they do or not remains to be seen. My crystal ball is a bit hazy on that one.

I would assess that Aossa is indeed a criminal organization. I am guessing that the owners would find another way to make illegal gains if they weren't using the fake ticket scam. Credit card fraud is by no means confined to the fake ticket industry.

The secondary ticket business (touting) has been around ever since there were tickets for sale. It is not all illegal. I am 100% against illegal activity, but I am 100% for a free market. If someone has a ticket they want to sell I believe they should be able to do so.

Promotors are indeed all for the secondary market as we have seen. Without it, the basic cost of a ticket would increase. From my limited experience, the main cause of tears at a festival door are caused by the heavy-handed attitude of the "security" staff.

There is not a cat's chance in hell of the commercial resale of tickets being banned. There is an outside chance that restrictive legislation will eventually be put in place, but that is a VERY outside chance. We live in a democracy after all.
 
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