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StubHub Says Artists, Venues, Fans Not Scalpers Inflate Ticket Prices

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Post # 21
Top Mon 25th Jun 2012 16:26
arkleyali

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 02/04/2012
Topics: 0 Replies: 114
Dusty, Ackerman et al:

There is one thing you all seem to have overlooked here. These fraudsters (like Aossa) are NOT ticket touts. They are confidence tricksters.

What do you think would happen if there was a ban on secondary ticketing? Do you honestly think they would all shut up shop and decide to go straight? Ofcourse not. They would just move on to the next scam.
 
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Post # 22
Top Mon 25th Jun 2012 19:48
Dusty

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 01/02/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 127
Quote from ackerman2406 - 25th Jun 2012 09:07 View
Dusty,

The secondary ticket business (touting) has been around ever since there were tickets for sale. It is not all illegal. I am 100% against illegal activity, but I am 100% for a free market. If someone has a ticket they want to sell I believe they should be able to do so.

Promotors are indeed all for the secondary market as we have seen. 

Point 1) As you very well know. The attempted resale of a ticket bought from a primary agent renders the ticket void under the terms of the contract which forbids resale without written authorisation. (A performance is also copyrighted therefore written authorisation is always needed) Selling a void ticket and implying it is valid is fraud.

Of course you are correct to say it is not all illegal. Only the resale of tickets bought from a primary agent is illegal. That accounts for the vast majority of tickets available via the secondary market.

Point 2) Rubbish. Name one promoter in this country who is in favour of the secondary market. It's one of the many lies touted by the secondary market. Along with customers push up the prices, we're here to protect customers and we are in collaboration with COE. The CPA is 100% in favour of banning a secondary market.

As for Viagogo, they've already appealed and lost. What higher court is there? The names and addresses of those sellers of RFU tickets should have been on the website at the time of sale under at least two UK laws. (The resale of tickets act and the consumer protection from unfair trading regulations)

It is a free market. It allows the owner of a product to dictate that resale is forbidden. If you are 100% agains illegal activity then you are advocating that purchasers cannot resell without written authorisation. If someone has a ticket they want to resell they need to get permission. If someone buys a ticket from a primary agent with the intention of reselling without authorisation then they are breaking the law. That scenario is applicable to nearly every single ticket on the secondary market so you cannot possibly support it if you really are against illegal activity.

 
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Post # 23
Top Mon 25th Jun 2012 19:54
Dusty

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 01/02/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 127
Quote from arkleyali - 25th Jun 2012 16:26 View
Dusty, Ackerman et al:

There is one thing you all seem to have overlooked here. These fraudsters (like Aossa) are NOT ticket touts. They are confidence tricksters.

What do you think would happen if there was a ban on secondary ticketing? Do you honestly think they would all shut up shop and decide to go straight? Ofcourse not. They would just move on to the next scam.

Agree. But what do you do if you see someone breaking into your house? Do you let them? After all, if you chase them away they'll only rob someone else.

 

 
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Post # 24
Top Mon 25th Jun 2012 21:02
ackerman2406

Rating: Pop Star
Joined: 02/05/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 70
Quote from Dusty - 25th Jun 2012 19:48 View

Quote from ackerman2406 - 25th Jun 2012 09:07 View
Dusty,

The secondary ticket business (touting) has been around ever since there were tickets for sale. It is not all illegal. I am 100% against illegal activity, but I am 100% for a free market. If someone has a ticket they want to sell I believe they should be able to do so.

Promotors are indeed all for the secondary market as we have seen. 

Point 1) As you very well know. The attempted resale of a ticket bought from a primary agent renders the ticket void under the terms of the contract which forbids resale without written authorisation. (A performance is also copyrighted therefore written authorisation is always needed) Selling a void ticket and implying it is valid is fraud.

Of course you are correct to say it is not all illegal. Only the resale of tickets bought from a primary agent is illegal. That accounts for the vast majority of tickets available via the secondary market.

Point 2) Rubbish. Name one promoter in this country who is in favour of the secondary market. It's one of the many lies touted by the secondary market. Along with customers push up the prices, we're here to protect customers and we are in collaboration with COE. The CPA is 100% in favour of banning a secondary market.

As for Viagogo, they've already appealed and lost. What higher court is there? The names and addresses of those sellers of RFU tickets should have been on the website at the time of sale under at least two UK laws. (The resale of tickets act and the consumer protection from unfair trading regulations)

It is a free market. It allows the owner of a product to dictate that resale is forbidden. If you are 100% agains illegal activity then you are advocating that purchasers cannot resell without written authorisation. If someone has a ticket they want to resell they need to get permission. If someone buys a ticket from a primary agent with the intention of reselling without authorisation then they are breaking the law. That scenario is applicable to nearly every single ticket on the secondary market so you cannot possibly support it if you really are against illegal activity.

I am not going to go through all this nonsense about copyright etc again.  Suggest you take advise from a barrister.

The date for Viagogo's latest appeal in the Supreme Court was set for 14/06/12.  I am guessing it has been delayed.

Promoters not in favour of the secondary market?  I take it that you didn't see the Dispatches programme on Channel 4 a few months ago.

 
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Post # 25
Top Mon 25th Jun 2012 21:50
arkleyali

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 02/04/2012
Topics: 0 Replies: 114
Quote from Dusty - 25th Jun 2012 19:54 View

Quote from arkleyali - 25th Jun 2012 16:26 View
Dusty, Ackerman et al:

There is one thing you all seem to have overlooked here. These fraudsters (like Aossa) are NOT ticket touts. They are confidence tricksters.

What do you think would happen if there was a ban on secondary ticketing? Do you honestly think they would all shut up shop and decide to go straight? Ofcourse not. They would just move on to the next scam.

Agree. But what do you do if you see someone breaking into your house? Do you let them? After all, if you chase them away they'll only rob someone else.

 

If somebody tried to break into my house but didn't suceed because of my state-of-the-art security it wouldn't stop them trying to break into somebody else's house.  So yes, in a sense I do chase them away because I would prefer them to rob someone else instead of me.

And if everyone's home was an impregnable fortress do you think there would be less criminals around?  No, they would turn their attention to another branch of thieving.

 
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Post # 26
Top Mon 25th Jun 2012 22:41
Markland

Rating: Rock Icon
Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
Quote from arkleyali - 25th Jun 2012 16:26 View
Dusty, Ackerman et al:

There is one thing you all seem to have overlooked here. These fraudsters (like Aossa) are NOT ticket touts. They are confidence tricksters.

 

Sorry to disagree on this but the overwhelming majority of ticket frauds are pulled by well known ticket touts

Not criminals with no connections to touting jumping on the bandwagon

They are simply ticket touts who commit criminal offences

The good news is that some touts NOT involved in criminality have been working with Police and other agencies for a long time now, in order to stop these frauds and get the scumbags prosecuted

 

 

 
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Post # 27
Top Tue 26th Jun 2012 00:17
Dusty

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 01/02/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 127
Quote from ackerman2406 - 25th Jun 2012 21:02 View

I am not going to go through all this nonsense about copyright etc again.  Suggest you take advise from a barrister.

The date for Viagogo's latest appeal in the Supreme Court was set for 14/06/12.  I am guessing it has been delayed.

Promoters not in favour of the secondary market?  I take it that you didn't see the Dispatches programme on Channel 4 a few months ago.

Copyright was just one aspect. A minor one but if you think the Berne convention is nonsense who am I to disagree? I take it all the other points I raised are valid in your opinion. After all, if you are in favour of the free market, then you must understand that it is rooted in 'freedom of contract'. If you sign a contract that says this ticket is not for resale without the written authorisation of the promoter and you ignore it, then you are in breach. If you buy from a primary,  the contract states that resale renders the ticket void, so, resale of the ticket without mentioning that it is no longer valid for entry is fraud.

You cannot defend fraud in one sentence and say you are 100% against illegal activity in another. You insult your own intelligence by doing so.

I did watch the dispatches prog. Didn't see any promoters on there. I believe SJM tried to reduce prices via supply with limited success and I believe Festival Republic attempted to work with them. Neither is in favour of a secondary market. FR has very publicly disclaimed them. The directors of both companies have been actively trying to get secondary market  resales banned for years. When those tickets were on sale from promoters the terms and conditions (dictated by the promoters) was that resale was banned.

Like I said. Name one promoter who is in favour of the existence of the secondary market.

@Arkley Ali. Totally in agreement. Criminals will always be criminals unless something is done to stop them.

 

 

 
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Post # 28
Top Tue 26th Jun 2012 09:50
arkleyali

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 02/04/2012
Topics: 0 Replies: 114
Quote from Markland - 25th Jun 2012 22:41 View

Quote from arkleyali - 25th Jun 2012 16:26 View
Dusty, Ackerman et al:

There is one thing you all seem to have overlooked here. These fraudsters (like Aossa) are NOT ticket touts. They are confidence tricksters.

 

Sorry to disagree on this but the overwhelming majority of ticket frauds are pulled by well known ticket touts

Not criminals with no connections to touting jumping on the bandwagon

They are simply ticket touts who commit criminal offences

The good news is that some touts NOT involved in criminality have been working with Police and other agencies for a long time now, in order to stop these frauds and get the scumbags prosecuted

 

 

Any company which is set up to cheat people by promising them non-existent tickets is run by confidence tricksters.

I don't care if they were tickets touts, brain surgeons or Mother Teresa in a former life - they are now criminals.

 

 
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Post # 29
Top Tue 26th Jun 2012 10:26
Markland

Rating: Rock Icon
Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
It will be interesting to see how viagogo can take the RFU matter to a higher court when they have liquidated viagogo uk!

Who is going to do that? The liquidator?

As for ebay, they are breaking the law in relation to olympic tickets regardless of where they are in the world, no confusion there over .com and .co.uk

Section 41(5) of the Act is quite clear on the matter as is section 31

Ebay us earning money from crime

It is not just the sellers, it is ebay itself who is committing criminal offences

Promoters being in favour of touts?

Regarding promoters, Sjm put 29,000 tickets through viagogo and that misled the public as to the origin of the tickets

That was out of some 1.8 million tickets for the Take That tour

The other amounts that were uncovered by Dispatches were tiny in comparison and certainly wouldn't have forced up the face value of the tickets if this duplicity hadn't taken place, reprehensible as it was

What you have are a small number promoters who engage in this scurrilous practice and they should be roundly condemned

And yes we do live in a democracy where the Government and politicians are there to protect the public and pass legislation to do so

Its about time they got off their overpaid, heavily lobbied by the tout platforms, fat behinds, and did so
 
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Post # 30
Top Tue 26th Jun 2012 19:36
Dusty

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 01/02/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 127
Hi Markland. I think that's a bit unfair on SJM as this was from a recommendation made by the government, They stated that they wouldn't regulate and promoters had to find a way to work with the platforms. One of the suggestions that came up was that by supplying Viagogo et al they could force prices down. i.e. V-Fest tickets released on the site at 150% of face value would push down the tout prices.
That 150% did not result in a big kickback to SJM as 25% + VAT went to the platform + 12 on P&P. I heard they were getting an additional 10% but they may not even have got that much. Plus they had to be sold under the terms offered by primary agents.
It did work to some extent as prices came down initially but with something like V Fest a sellout is guaranteed so ultimately the touts bought the SJM tickets and inflated the prices even more.
And when I say 'touts' it was probably Viagogo themselves.
You have to wonder why they've spent so much time and money protecting the names of the RFU ticket sellers. Especially when, according to them, no laws have been broken. Call me cynical but I'd say the only logical conclusion is that the RFU resellers are Viagogo.
 
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Post # 31
Top Thu 28th Jun 2012 15:56
Markland

Rating: Rock Icon
Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
Jumping in to bed with companies like viagogo simply gives them a false veneer of respectability and the public a false and misleading impression as to what they are and how they operate

Look at what happened when Operation Podium jumped into bed with them after they ignored warnings to keep away from them

They had to suspend a prevention forum due to viagogos activities!

Any interaction with these tout platforms is ill advised and, frankly naive
 
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Post # 32
Top Thu 28th Jun 2012 19:59
Dusty

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 01/02/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 127

Totally ill-advised. Think SJM and Festival Republic would agree with hindsight.
The real point was that 2 promoters attempting to find a way forwards via collaboration as advised by the government is being painted as Promoters (in general) supplying tickets to platforms to line their own pockets.

When someone makes claims like that they need to supply names because I personally don't know a single promoter who doesn't want resales banned. SJM's MD and Festival Republic are both part of the campaign to rid the industry of profiteers.

 
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Post # 33
Top Thu 28th Jun 2012 21:39
Markland

Rating: Rock Icon
Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763

Agreed, the total number of tickets given to the tout platforms was a drop in the ocean compared to the total number put on sale per annum by the promoters

And hindsight in retrospect is like 20/20 vision, always perfect!
 

 
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Post # 34
Top Fri 29th Jun 2012 08:32
nancyhaven

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 09/04/2012
Topics: 3 Replies: 160

The Concert Promoter’s Association, whose members include Live Nation, SJM and Metropolis Music, told programme makers that promoters putting tickets onto the secondary market brought prices down, while ensuring that some tickets in the resell market were genuine.

It said: "In this respect the secondary market is effectively being used as a premium price primary market for those fans who wish to use it for convenience."

It added that fans would "be happier that the premium went to the artist via the promoter rather than went to a tout."

Live Nation, SJM, Metropolis Music and Phil Macintyre Entertainment declined Event's request to comment further today.


This is what the CPA had to say after the "Dispatches" programme. Doesn't sound to me that they are against secondary selling or have been coerced into using it by the government.

 
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Post # 35
Top Fri 29th Jun 2012 13:14
Dusty

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 01/02/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 127

As I said: Tickets were put on the platforms in an attempt to bring down prices. That was not secondary selling. We agree that it was ill-advised and you have confirmed that by misreading what was an attempt to curtail profiteering as support for the secondaries.  (and remember this only happened after they had approached the Govt to intervene and  the govt had refused to help)


The following is an extract from the CPA's standard terms to be used by all their members?

You may not re-sell or transfer a Ticket if you are selling or transferring the Ticket in the course of business.  You are deemed to be selling or transferring in the course of business where we reasonably believe you to be doing so.

Circumstances where We may consider that a Ticket is being resold in the course of business include:

1) Where a Ticket is sold or advertised for sale for profit (as defined below) through any medium not authorised by Us, including through unauthorised online auction or other websites.  ...............

...............Re-selling a Ticket for profit means any re-sale that seeks a price that is higher than the face value of the ticket and the relevant booking fee and/or handling fee (if any) that You paid for the Ticket.  

Any Ticket obtained in breach of these Terms and Conditions shall be void and all, rights conferred or evidenced by such Ticket shall be void. Any person seeking to use such a void Ticket in order to gain or provide entry to an Event may be considered to be a trespasser and may be liable to be ejected and liable to legal action.

Void Tickets are non-refundable.

Does a total ban on reselling for profit sound like they are against secondary sales to you? It does to me.

 
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Post # 36
Top Fri 29th Jun 2012 13:28
nancyhaven

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 09/04/2012
Topics: 3 Replies: 160
No, I don't think I have misread the quote - neither did I take it out of context. I copied and pasted the whole thing from the internet.

Me - I couldn't care less who sells what or where. I just find it fascinating that directly after the programme was aired people were coming out here saying how outrageous it was that promoters were selling through secondary platforms and hoodwinking the public - now the same people seem to be back-peddling.
 
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Post # 37
Top Fri 29th Jun 2012 16:39
Markland

Rating: Rock Icon
Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
Not at all

Jumping into bed with dubious, dishonest companies like viagogo was bound to bite whoever had anything to do with them in the behind

Look what happened when the Metropolitan Police Operation Podium ill advisedly included viagogo and seatwave on its "prevention forum"

They had to suspend it due to their activities!

So its not only the promoters who regret having anything to do with them
 
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Post # 38
Top Fri 29th Jun 2012 21:53
nancyhaven

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 09/04/2012
Topics: 3 Replies: 160

"As I said: Tickets were put on the platforms in an attempt to bring down prices. That was not secondary selling. We agree that it was ill-advised and you have confirmed that by misreading what was an attempt to curtail profiteering as support for the secondaries. (and remember this only happened after they had approached the Govt to intervene and the govt had refused to help)"

I cannot for the life of me see how putting tickets for sale at an inflated price on a secondary site would bring down prices.

Just read the full article and am not convinced one iota by CPA's excuses. They wanted to claw back some of the lost revenue. Excuse me? It doesn't matter if a ticket has been sold to a concert-goer or to a tout - once the ticket has been sold for the first time everyone concerned (promoter, artist, etc) will have got their money. They did it because the government refused to help? They actually sold tickets at a premium on a secondary site because the government refused to help - doesn't make sense. It wasn't so long ago that CPA had their own secondary selling site (officialticketsonline.com).  Presume they closed down the operation because it didn't make any money.

 
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Post # 39
Top Fri 29th Jun 2012 22:55
Dusty

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 01/02/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 127
Quote from nancyhaven - 29th Jun 2012 21:53 View

 

I cannot for the life of me see how putting tickets for sale at an inflated price on a secondary site would bring down prices.
 

Let me help: If you put bananas on sale for £1 each and I put them on sale for 50p you have to reduce yours to 50p to sell them.

or........... you can buy them all off me for 50p and resell them for £1.50 (which is what happened)

www.officialticketsonline.com, is a New York based ticket scam site. You're talking about OfficialBoxOffice.com.

Announcing it in 2009, Rob Ballantine, CPA spokesperson said:

"The CPA have campaigned on behalf of music fans to try and get the government to outlaw ticket touting. The government have refused to do this, so the secondary market is here to stay. We are powerless to police this as it is rife with fraud and week-after-week fans are being ripped off by purchasing fraudulent tickets. We are therefore launching a site that will have the most robust system possible to minimise the chance of fans buying non-existent or misrepresented tickets."

Ballantine added that the site is not looking to make money (the CPA is a not for profit association).

It didn't last long. Hardly surprising. Would resellers really use a site run by people dedicated to outlawing resales? Bit like asking burglars to report their break-ins to the police. 

 

 
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Post # 40
Top Sat 30th Jun 2012 00:53
Markland

Rating: Rock Icon
Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
The elephant in the room is the fact that legislation will not get passed to protect the public because the tout platforms have been lobbying MPs for a very long time

You have to question the competence and integrity of MPs who refuse to pass legislation to protect the public in favour of big companies with dubious, and potentially illegal practices


 
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