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Hertford event and tours company policy.

Dispatch of tickets.
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Post # 141
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 12:42
nancyhaven

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Joined: 09/04/2012
Topics: 3 Replies: 160
Quote from Markland - 22nd May 2012 10:13 View

So this tissue of lies sold to the public and politicians about the tout platforms being "fan to fan" ticket exchanges was stripped away, hence why reference to it was removed from the tout platform sites post Dispatches

A little late considering the lie is firmly stuck in peoples minds

Let's get real here.  The average man in the street would have difficulty even knowing was sort of company Seatwave is, never mind remembering their past advertising slogan.

 
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Post # 142
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 14:54
Markland

Rating: Rock Icon
Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
Oh well I think the Advertising Standards Authority might disagree

In fact, they did last year

www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/2/Seatwave-Ltd/TF_ADJ_49796.aspx

Assessment
Upheld

The ASA noted Seatwave did not sell tickets directly but took steps to facilitate the delivery process. We considered the ad made clear tickets were sold and purchased by third party members. We also considered that the claim "Seatwave guarantees you'll get your tickets on time" implied that consumers would definitely receive the tickets they had purchased. We noted that was not the case and considered that this was a significant condition likely to affect viewers' decision to purchase tickets through Seatwave. Furthermore, we considered that the on-screen text "Tickets guaranteed or money back" contradicted the claim "Seatwave guarantees you'll get your tickets on time". We concluded the ad was misleading.

The ad breached BCAP Code rules 3.1 and 3.2 (Misleading advertising), 3.10 (Qualification) and 3.50 (Guarantees and after-sales service).
 
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Post # 143
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 15:01
angela3

Rating: Minor Celebrity
Joined: 23/02/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 31
Quote from Markland - 22nd May 2012 14:54 View
Oh well I think the Advertising Standards Authority might disagree

In fact, they did last year

www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/2/Seatwave-Ltd/TF_ADJ_49796.aspx

Assessment
Upheld

The ASA noted Seatwave did not sell tickets directly but took steps to facilitate the delivery process. We considered the ad made clear tickets were sold and purchased by third party members. We also considered that the claim "Seatwave guarantees you'll get your tickets on time" implied that consumers would definitely receive the tickets they had purchased. We noted that was not the case and considered that this was a significant condition likely to affect viewers' decision to purchase tickets through Seatwave. Furthermore, we considered that the on-screen text "Tickets guaranteed or money back" contradicted the claim "Seatwave guarantees you'll get your tickets on time". We concluded the ad was misleading.

The ad breached BCAP Code rules 3.1 and 3.2 (Misleading advertising), 3.10 (Qualification) and 3.50 (Guarantees and after-sales service).

That ad was run over 18 months ago.

Markland clutchuing at straws again.

 

 
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Post # 144
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 15:14
nancyhaven

Rating: Rock Star
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Topics: 3 Replies: 160
The ASA may very well have concluded the ad was misleading, but the fact remains that for most people this really is an unimportant issue.

People like Markland live and breath ticket sale, ticket touting etc., but I am willing to bet that if you took a straw poll about what ordinary people really think are the rip-offs in the UK anything to do with tickets sales wouldn't make the top 50.

I am guessing:

Bank charges and bankers bonus'
Duty on petrol
MPs expensese
Ryanair's "cheap" flights
VAT
Airport tax
Draconian speeding laws
Income tax
Inheritance tax
The state of the NHS
The state of the schools
University tuition charges
The organization of the 2012 Olympics
The Queen's Jubilee
Man U or Man City

would all spark off a lively debate. Seatwave? Viagogo? Who are they? Misleading ads? Yawn.
 
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Post # 145
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 15:15
Medusa
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Joined: 12/09/2003
Topics: 583 Replies: 1758
I think it's relevant, not clutching at straws, demonstrates the tactics used. Why would it not be relevant in the overall picture?

angela3 trying to deflect again?
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”
 
 
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Post # 146
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 15:24
Dusty

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Joined: 01/02/2012
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Quote from harrytheo - 22nd May 2012 09:26 View
If an artist does have a say in the pricing on tickets (and that's not always the case)

Do you really think 20-30% of tickets go unsold? How many gigs have one third of the seats empty? If the artist is popular there aren't go to be many empty seats.

I don't know where you found your Viagogo example. Looking back through the threads you have already been shown genuine examples of sales where the figures don't stack up like that. The buyer pays 15%. The seller pays a sliding scale according to their contract. Next day delivery with UPS is £9.95 but can be less if they have a special offer or if you choose the Special Delivery option.

Business to business sales? Are you sure that selling to an individual can ever be a business to business sale? Nobody (business or individual) sells tickets to the big 4 platforms. Do you think Ticketmaster is ever going to take any sort of action if a ticket from them is resold by whoever for whatever reason? As long as they still have Getmein in their portfolio this is never going to happen.

The bottom line is that touting is never, ever going to go away. Sadly, neither is scamming.

Hi Harry, Thanks for the compliment.

1) My bad. By artist I meant Author/Copyright holder. So yes inalienable right but as I've mentioned before it's often a juggling act. But you are correct about the greed element. I know of two very big bands whose fee is 100% of the ticket revenue. As a result, the promoter is forced to rely on a 'kickback' from the booking fee. The primary agent is left just about breaking even but..........benefitting from the increase in traffic to the website. Is it any wonder we get pissed off at touts making more money for an inferior service?

2) Figs I'm getting from venues on No-shows.

3) Sliding scale accepted. This was based on the advertised 10%. and the £11.95 P&P seems to be applied to all the resale prices I've used.

4) 100% sure. Trading i.e buying something to resell is ALWAYS a business activity. Consumer law does not apply even in "a one off adventure by way of trade" (House of Lords ruling on the interpretation of the various laws relating to dealing as a consumer)

5) The void system I've devised requires no direct involvement by the primary agents. If legal action fails to get results, it's the promoter who will need to agree to it. If they do adopt it on a wide scale, we'll see a massive reduction in touting.

 
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Post # 147
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 15:34
nancyhaven

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 09/04/2012
Topics: 3 Replies: 160
Quote from Medusa - 22nd May 2012 15:15 View
I think it's relevant, not clutching at straws, demonstrates the tactics used. Why would it not be relevant in the overall picture?

angela3 trying to deflect again?

Ofcourse it's relevant - as is all misleading advertising for any product.  My point is that the general public don't find it very interesting.

 

 
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Post # 148
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 15:37
nancyhaven

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Quote from Dusty - 22nd May 2012 15:24 View

4) 100% sure. Trading i.e buying something to resell is ALWAYS a business activity. Consumer law does not apply even in "a one off adventure by way of trade" (House of Lords ruling on the interpretation of the various laws relating to dealing as a consumer)

In a previous posting you were talking about business-to-business. Do you actually mean business-to-consumer?

 

 
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Post # 149
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 15:53
Dusty

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Joined: 01/02/2012
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@Nancy. We know it's a minority issue. i.e. it affects a minority of the British public. It's still wrong and still important to us. There are many such issues. Are you suggesting that the fact that most of us are unaffected by the issue means there is no point in fighting? Does the same apply to missold PPI, legal recognition of Gay marriage or the right of a dementia sufferer to stay in their own home? All minority issues.
 
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Post # 150
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 15:58
ackerman2406

Rating: Pop Star
Joined: 02/05/2012
Topics: 1 Replies: 70
Nancyhaven, Dusty et al -

My, my - you lot do fancy yourselves as experts on the law. Instead of studying for 5 -6 years before becoming a qualifed member of the profession, I wonder why everybody doesn't just look up a few pertinent facts on the internet. Can't possibly be any more to it than that can there?
 
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Post # 151
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 16:05
Medusa
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Joined: 12/09/2003
Topics: 583 Replies: 1758
Wicked ackerman - wicked - but you made me laugh!
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.”
 
 
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Post # 152
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 17:11
nancyhaven

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 09/04/2012
Topics: 3 Replies: 160
Quote from Dusty - 22nd May 2012 15:53 View
@Nancy. We know it's a minority issue. i.e. it affects a minority of the British public. It's still wrong and still important to us. There are many such issues. Are you suggesting that the fact that most of us are unaffected by the issue means there is no point in fighting? Does the same apply to missold PPI, legal recognition of Gay marriage or the right of a dementia sufferer to stay in their own home? All minority issues.

Dusty,

You've hit the nail on the head.  It's important to YOU, so ofcourse you should fight for what you believe in.  What I am saying is that it's not important to the majority of people, so why should they fight for something they really don't care about?

I haven't been missold a PPI - so in truth, I am not going to do anything about it (didn't even know there was anything I could do to help those who have been missold).  Gay marriage?  Doesn't affect me, so I have no opinion.  Dementia sufferers?  Ditto.

Do you seriously expect people to take up arms (figuratively ofcourse) against the secondary selling sites when they have never been affected by them?

 

 
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Post # 153
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 17:55
Dusty

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Quote from nancyhaven - 22nd May 2012 15:37 View

Quote from Dusty - 22nd May 2012 15:24 View
In a previous posting you were talking about business-to-business. Do you actually mean business-to-consumer?

Is it really that hard to understand? I was talking about the distinction between the legal definition of a 'consumer transaction' vs the legal definition of a 'business transaction' i.e. the criteria that the law applies to decide whether parties to a contract are to be regarded as consumers or business customers.

 

In ascertaining whether either party is B (dealing as a business) or C (dealing as a consumer) it's totally irrelevant whether that's B2B, C2C, B2C or even C2B.

However it is vital to know what kind of transaction is taking place because the laws governing the transaction are very different. The CPU's protect consumers to a very high level. Business transactions are protected to a lesser degree.

Dealing as a Consumer: Can be a business or an individual. Purchase or sales are protected by the UTCCR

If a business, then they must be acting outside of their normal trade. As an example: If I buy paint to paint my shop window, I'm acting as a consumer and consumer law applies. (B2C) If I have extra paint left over I can put it on Ebay and sell it as a consumer because it's outside of my normal business activity and I didn't buy it to sell it. C2C (or C2B)

Dealing as a Business Can be a business or an individual. Neither purchase nor sale are protected by the UTCCR

If I buy till rolls for the shop, I'm buying as a business customer. B2B

If I buy 500 litres of paint from a shop with the intention of selling the excess on Ebay, the purchase and the sale are 'business' transactions. The purchase is B2B and the resale is B2C (or B2B)

So let's say the paint seller adds a clause saying colour may vary from that shown. As a consumer, I'm covered to get my money back. That term is 'unfair' in a consumer contract. However, as soon as I buy with the intention of reselling, the contract is a business one and I've agreed to that term by entering into the transaction. As a business buyer I would need to prove the terms of the contract were 'unreasonable'. "colour may vary" is not "unreasonable".

There are two basic criteria for deciding whether an entity is acting as a consumer or acting as a business. Neither relate to the identity of the parties i.e. it is irrelevant whether the party is an individual or a business.

The first is trading. i.e. buying or creating to resell. That is always a business transaction.

The second is 'regularity' There's no specific criteria. For instance. I'm a garage mechanic. I like to do up cars for personal use and then sell them and 'do up' a new one. The regularity with which I do that defines whether selling the cars a business sale.

So...to answer your question in context.

B2B: Primary agent to Reseller (who bought to resell)

B2C: Primary agent to consumer. Reseller (who bought to resell) to consumer.

 
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Post # 154
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 19:00
nancyhaven

Rating: Rock Star
Joined: 09/04/2012
Topics: 3 Replies: 160

OK Dusty, you win. I give up. Infact, I'm fast losing the will to live which I presume in Dusty-speak makes me an R2D*

Do hope your paint turns out to be the right colour.

*Ready 2 Die

 
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Post # 155
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 19:26
Dusty

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Topics: 1 Replies: 127
Quote from ackerman2406 - 22nd May 2012 15:58 View
Nancyhaven, Dusty et al -

My, my - you lot do fancy yourselves as experts on the law. Instead of studying for 5 -6 years before becoming a qualifed member of the profession, I wonder why everybody doesn't just look up a few pertinent facts on the internet. Can't possibly be any more to it than that can there?

We're forced to do this because the legal profession charge such silly fees for looking it up on the internet for us ;-)

I've spent the last 35 years complying with consumer law.  I have a son with a business law degree and a brother with LLB hons and while I admit I don't always seek his overview, I did in this case. That said: I welcome dissent. I realise I've oversimplified but If anything I've said is fundamentally flawed, please say why. (or does that come at an hourly rate)

 
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Post # 156
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 19:47
arrgee2011

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Quote from Markland - 22nd May 2012 10:13 View

Quote from arrgee2011 - 21st May 2012 22:59 View

 

Quote from Dusty - 21st May 2012 19:45 View

 

... you don't need to be Einstein to recognise that the vast majority, if not all, sellers on the Big4 are Business sellers. 

 

 

The majority of tickets sold come from business sellers (promoters/ticket brokers), but the majority of sellers are individuals.  This was on the dispatches programme.

 

 

In actual fact if you look at the clip from the Noah Convention you will see that 68% of tickets advertised on seatwave were from touts

The majority of sellers might be individuals, the majority of tickets come from touts

 

Why did you quote and repeat what I wrote? 

 
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Post # 157
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 20:33
arrgee2011

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Quote from Dusty - 22nd May 2012 00:24 View

 

C) Simple mathematics: If you can't go and want to make your money back, you first go and see if the agent will refund you. If not, you can sell the ticket on Scarlet Mist for face value.

@Arrgee: What they said was 95% have sold less than 10 tickets. (and 95% of sales are sold by the other 5%) 10 tickets is a hell of a lot more than you'd expect from a consumer sale and I can suggest a very good reason why they don't come back.

At first glance buying a £30 ticket and selling it for £100 looks like a way to make money. It is. For Viagogo. Cost of selling it = £42 (25% +Vat  =£30 +postage =£12) Cost of buying it? £38 inc post. Gross profit £20. So, the return for the seller isn't that great even when the ticket is priced at over 3 times the face value, and (as we've been told only 60% sell) the risk is high.

That may not be what you meant. Do you think an 'individual' is a consumer by default? Many individuals (myself included) run businesses but the distinction here is between a business sale/purchase and a consumer sale/purchase and you do not need to be 'running a business' to 'deal as a business'. If you buy something with the specific intention of reselling it, it is a business purchase. When you resell, it is a business sale.

Obviously you could pretend you didn't buy it to resell in the first place but the law has also added in 'regularity' as a distinction so even innocent resales, if occurring regularly, could be seen as a business transaction.

 

The thing about Scarlet Mist is I don't see many tickets selling on it.

I don't see individuals using VSGS to make money as such.  Often its people like me who have three spare tickets for the Buzzcocks and just want to get some of their money back.  Being £10 out of pocket is better than being £85 out of pocket.  

I don't see how you make £20 for selling a £30 ticket for £100.  A real example (I just ran the numbers, not actually selling a ticket)

 

8 @ £45.00 = £360.00
Booking Fee   £23.20
 
Outlay - £383.20
 
I list them at £90 each
 

£90.00 per ticket (x8 tickets):

£720.00

Less Seatwave Success fee:

(-£72.00)

Less VAT

(-£14.40)

Total you will receive:

£633.60

 

 
Someone buys them
 
2 ticketsx £90.00 each £180.00
The fees
Booking fee (inc Vat)   £32.40
Delivery to      UK £4.99 
Total price            £217.37
 
Total sales            £869.48
 
Seller makes £250.40  = £ 31.30/ticket
Seatwave make £235.88 = £29.48/ticket ** Assuming they pocket the postage charge.
 
Your maths must be wrong because selling £45 tickets at £108 makes me over £30.  And Seatwave too.

The tickets sell if they are priced right.   If you look at VSGS, especially Seatwave, you can see what is selling.  People may ask £100 for a Weller gig, but if the last three sales were £10 each then they aren't going to get it.  The 60% selling is a gross simplification you are mis-using.  Seatwave say they sell 60% of the listings.  Some tickets will sell elsewhere, and some are phantom listings where the tout/seller will get hold of the ticket if someone is mug enough to pay.

 

 
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Post # 158
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 20:38
arrgee2011

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Quote from Markland - 22nd May 2012 10:13 View

We are completely at a loss as to why people are so keen to defend them

I don't defend them, but they have their uses.  They are a handy way of getting rid of spare tickets, and a handy way of getting discounted tickets.  If primary agents provided refunds and there was a means of buying discounted tickets then I wouldn't ever use them.  But in this imperfect world they do provide a service that isn't readily available elsewhere.

 
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Post # 159
Top Tue 22nd May 2012 21:04
arrgee2011

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Quote from harrytheo - 22nd May 2012 09:26 View
 

Do you really think 20-30% of tickets go unsold? How many gigs have one third of the seats empty? If the artist is popular there aren't go to be many empty seats.
 

 

From what I'm seeing the tickets aren't selling.  Happy Mondays at the weekend was about 50-60% full with plenty of tickets at the box office,  Horrors & Buzzcocks with plenty of tickets for this weekend.  Ray Davies tickets aplenty at the Albert Hall. Thousands of tickets for Field Day in a fortnight. Hardly any sell outs at the O2 Shepherd's Bush.  Even Madonna can't sell out. Check out any venue and probably only a handful are sold out.  Concerts are discretionary spending and people aren't buying tickets.

 

 
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Post # 160
Top Wed 23rd May 2012 10:19
Markland

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Joined: 02/10/2006
Topics: 250 Replies: 1763
Quote from angela3 - 22nd May 2012 15:01 View

Quote from Markland - 22nd May 2012 14:54 View
Oh well I think the Advertising Standards Authority might disagree

In fact, they did last year

www.asa.org.uk/ASA-action/Adjudications/2011/2/Seatwave-Ltd/TF_ADJ_49796.aspx

Assessment
Upheld

The ASA noted Seatwave did not sell tickets directly but took steps to facilitate the delivery process. We considered the ad made clear tickets were sold and purchased by third party members. We also considered that the claim "Seatwave guarantees you'll get your tickets on time" implied that consumers would definitely receive the tickets they had purchased. We noted that was not the case and considered that this was a significant condition likely to affect viewers' decision to purchase tickets through Seatwave. Furthermore, we considered that the on-screen text "Tickets guaranteed or money back" contradicted the claim "Seatwave guarantees you'll get your tickets on time". We concluded the ad was misleading.

The ad breached BCAP Code rules 3.1 and 3.2 (Misleading advertising), 3.10 (Qualification) and 3.50 (Guarantees and after-sales service).

That ad was run over 18 months ago.

Markland clutchuing at straws again.

 

The adjudication against seatwave was 2011

I am amazed you know exactly when this advertisement was run

And up until recently seatwave were claiming to be a "fan to fan" ticket exhange, and then, mysteriously, removed it from their branding after how many years of fooling the public and politicians?

Lets see what the ASA have to say about those advertisements and branding shall we?

 
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